{UAH} CAN MBABAZI ENDURE TORTURES LIKE BESIGYE? DUDE WILL PISS JERRICANS

Mbabazi to Kayihura: You cannot stop me

Written by Deo Walusimbi

 Last Updated: 26 June 2015

 

Former prime minister Amama Mbabazi

Appearing on Voice of America's Straight Talk Africa show on Wednesday, former prime minister AMAMA MBABAZI discussed his 2016 presidential bid, term limits, and the politics of succession in Africa, among other issues. Shaka Ssali, the talk show host, interviewed Mbabazi alongside Herman Jay Cohen, the former US secretary of state for African Affairs. 

Below are excerpts from the interview.

We are talking about (presidential) term limits and there is a survey as you have seen, which frankly suggests that a vast majority of the African people want term limits. Any particular reason why African people want term limits and most African leaders are not on the same page with them?

As you may know, I have been, I would say, one of the chief proponents of no term limits and the reasons were strong and I think they still remain strong and in summary, the reasons are that:

The history of Africa is replete with failure. If you look at slave trade, our people stayed in slavery for 300 years, what did African leaders do to stop the slave trade?
They didn't stop it; instead, they participated in it because they hunted their subjects and sold them in slavery [that is] poor leadership. Eventually, we were colonized directly, why we didn't resist slavery; successfully [because of] poor leadership with exception of Ethiopia.

Even after independence, Idi Amin in Uganda and others I don't want to mention, other leaders for obvious reasons, but Uganda is a good example of poor leaders. 
So, the argument that when you get good leaders you should not just get rid of them like that is not a weak argument in the context of that history.

However of course, on the other hand, normally these leaders who become strong come from a background of almost oblivion.

They are not known until they come up and they become great leaders. So, if you came up from nowhere and became a great leader, why on earth would you imagine that someone else would not come in similar circumstances and become a great leader? That is a very important question.

…when it comes to our country Uganda, when a young man was sworn in to power in 1986, I was one of those people who were so happy, inspired by what he said; that the problem of Africa is about leaders who overstay in power, but the last time I checked, Museveni is in his 29th year and he still wants to run for office next year.

How do you react to that, is it because he is unique like you have suggested in the past?

Well, I am actually not sure that talking about President Museveni makes the point because the point is strong on its own. When you have achieved success as a leader, the tendency is to believe in your own success and I think some of our leaders and I am not necessarily talking about President Museveni, I actually don't like referring to individual leaders because it's not the individual that matters, it's about the idea (or) principle and that is what I would like to address.

If someone remains in power, this happens in Britain, where you don't have term limits in case of Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair, they stayed long in power and you could see by their conduct, by the way they took decisions and  related with their colleagues that success had entered their mind and influenced their actions.

And sometimes, this has a tendency of making their leadership derailed from the original principle, this is a fact. 

You are a freedom fighter, you supported a group under very difficult circumstances, in fact a party that was equally supported by my own father (RIP). He admired Museveni because he [my father] told me in his own words that he [Museveni] was the best thing that happened to Uganda because he believed in social justice. Do you sincerely think that if he were still alive today he would still be feeling the same way?

…I think most probably if he [your father] was alive, he would still subscribe as I do, to the core principles of our revolutionary war and the NRM, which was the successor of the various organisations we established to struggle.

So, I don't know whether he will have the same mind as I have now that President [Museveni] of course, has done a great job, he led us very well in the war, he has led us very well in peace and we have achieved a great deal in Uganda. But if I can talk about that, my position very clearly, which I have discussed with the president,

I have written [and] I have told him so that there comes a time for change. We have done a lot of things, we have reached a level, which is acknowledged by the whole world and it was not expected of Uganda a long time ago. But now is the time to move a notch higher.

We have been in leadership for nearly 30 years now and it's inevitable that there will be a generational transition in terms of leadership and my offer to my people is to lead that transition of leadership of our generation to the next and I can talk about it when you give me the opportunity later on.

Just supposing, the Ugandan president [Museveni] was watching you on this show, what would you say to him?

As I said, I don't think it helps to talk about individuals and I was not particularly talking about this [Museveni]. You know, I have had a great relationship with the president.

But you have offered to challenge him and frankly from everything I have seen, he doesn't seem comfortable with the possibility of being challenged by a former comrade of his?

I actually don't think I am a former comrade, I believe I am still his friend, our friendship has endured all wars, exile, peace, government and I think that strong relationship still endures.

What about Dr Kizza Besigye, also your comrade; he went to the bush, worked very closely with you and the president and yet when you look at the manner in which your government has treated him in the past; you begin to wonder what you guys were fighting for!

Did you go to the bush as you said to fight to restore democracy as it were?

I can come to that [Besigye issue], but I want to answer the question you asked earlier that if I were to talk to the president what would I tell him?

I have talked to the president. You know some of my colleagues have told me directly that the position I have taken is not proper, that it is almost treacherous, I don't agree.

You see, a friend is not one who tells his friend what he wants to hear; rather, the one who tells him what he ought to learn and hear and that is my role and total friendship with my elder brother [Museveni] who has been my leader for all this time.

Mbabazi responds to social media suggestions from political observers who believe that term limits are crucial in building democracy...

I think one other reason we had [in supporting no term limits] is the question of choice because the whole concept of democracy is the freedom to choose and the arguments we had in support of no term limits, we argued that it limits that freedom.

But in reality, when you look at what is happening in some places, then you begin to wonder whether there is real choice of that freedom or one is talking about a mirage because if the state machinery is used to suppress competition, state machinery is used in circumstances like ours where populations are poor or where even their level of awareness of their rights is not very advanced, then, clearly, you can see that choice in this case is a mirage.

So, term limits help because they actually give people that choice as well because you have a level ground in terms of competition and I think that is democracy that is good for our people.

Do you have that in Uganda for example?

Well, we don't have term limits.

If somebody were to ask you about your [decision to remove term limits from the constitution in 2005] and answering him from your deepest better part of your Kanungu heart and soul, do you sincerely have a situation and place where the space is open for anybody that is willing to run for any office including the highest office in the land without running into obstacles because I have seen a lot of pressure brought against Mbabazi who was until recently a powerful secretary general of NRM, a prime minister in fact sometimes referred to as a super minister and from everything I have seen, there is a problem on the ground.

Yeah, that is true; there is a problem on the ground because since I made my declaration of my aspiration to be a candidate for president, a lot of things have happened. Up to 100 of my supporters have been arrested by the police and the crime they have committed is to dare say, we support Amama Mbabazi, or to have in their possession things like posters, T-shirts with my picture. That is the crime they have committed.

I did discuss this with the president and the president told me that he would instruct the police to stop it, but it has not stopped. I left [Uganda] after that, it continues even today as we speak, but I hope we can sit down [with Museveni] and sort out this.

My appeal to our people in Uganda and the whole of Africa is [that] we should introduce a level of decency in politics. We should have clear rules which affect everyone, which we all observe and there should be equal opportunity [and] nobody should take advantage of anything over others. That is the critical question.

In my case, I do believe that I have the support in the population; I am acting strictly in accordance with the law. I did write to our electoral commission and I wrote to the police as well to inform them that I will be making a tour of the country to promote my aspiration.

Our laws require that to be nominated as a presidential candidate, you must have at least 100 registered voters sponsoring you from at least two thirds of all the constituencies of Uganda. So, I am acting within the law to move and tell people about my aspirations to get their support hopefully.
Now to stop me is obviously to act in breach of the law and clearly it's undemocratic.

But they say that your declaration so far is in fact illegal, that you have jumped the electoral queue because it's not yet time?

Phone calls:

Morrison Rwakakamba calls from Cambridge Massachusetts. Mbabazi you have been the operational chief, operating at the tactical level of government as a former prime minister…

why is it that you want to do what you didn't do when you were in government…and when I listened to your eight-points when you declared your presidential bid, they are clearly [taken care of] in the National Development Plan and the Vision 2040 in Uganda, which you were clearly part of.

Although I appreciate that it is a constitutional right and you are welcome, what is the motivation of your challenge and to stand in the NRM?
Contrary to what you might think, you are not God's gift to democracy, you are not God's gift to Uganda that you have been around and people think that [many things] stopped at your desk.

Benjamin Alipanga from Kampala: Actually, I don't have a question, but I have an observation. When we talk of African leaders being so much interested in third term and extending their terms of office in Africa and in Uganda also, one thing comes to my mind.
When they stay for so long in power, they build a group around them and sometimes it is this kind of grouping that is responsible for their staying because they want to protect their properties and wealth…

Shaka: Can you respond to Morrison's question?

Well, if it is the Morrison I know, Mr Rwakakamba I think, I understand what angle he is speaking from.

Why?

Because he is an employee and a supporter of the president [Museveni].

He is your colleague because you belong to the same ruling party.

Well, you know there is a difference between an employee and belonging to a party.

But what about some people who are saying that in Uganda, there is absolutely no difference between the ruling party and the state, that the two are fused and you have been with the government for 29 years so you must know something?

Not quite. It's a question of abuse only, when it occurs that the state machinery is used to favour a party, but it's not true that they are fused. The laws are very clear. 
But let me tell Mr Rwakakamba, I think I have said also in my statement, which he referred to that in the coming days and weeks, I will be coming out with my policies on these issues and obviously, I will not do so today because I don't have time for it ; maybe this month will be appropriate to do it.

But generally speaking as I clearly said during my declaration, my thrust is about better governance. As the English saying [goes], the old broom, I have been it, I know where the weaknesses are, I know why I was not able to do certain things, I will talk about them when I come…

You will not talk about it today?

I don't have time, but it's a question of better governance, improving our economic performance generally; it's a question of having a better improved quality of life.
These are the things I am looking at, and I am going to be specific in each one of them to the greatest detail of where we are as a country and bottlenecks and what we need to do to overcome them.

It's on record that you were the champion or perhaps the salesman of the Public Order Management Act, which seems to be haunting you now because some of the letters we are looking at from the IGP [are pointing at it]. Is General Kale Kayihura the IGP of the Ugandan police or the Museveni police?

Well, let me clarify this, I think there has been some misunderstandings. The Public Order Management Act was an act that was necessitated by the decision of the Constitutional court, which struck out the Police Act that gave police power to permit assemblies, demonstrations or not to permit assemblies.

The court ruled that this was unconstitutional. It also ruled, however, that it was important to have a law, which would regulate those freedoms to be exercised by the people.

The Public Order Management Act actually, does not give police any power to stop or do anything of the kind. I see the Inspector General of Police (Kayihura) writing to me saying that I am not cleared.

He has no authority to clear or not to clear me. It doesn't exist, the problem is not the law, the problem is the consistent breaching of that law by the police.

What makes you think that really, you are the best man for the [top] job in Uganda given the accusations against you of corruption, mismanagement of government responsibility and what have you?

Let me begin with corruption. Yes there have been corruption allegations, but all these were cleared by all manner of investigations, they were false.

Secondly, what I am proposing is that it's time for change and I am offering myself to lead that kind of change, the transition from the old generation to the new and I don't think there is anyone better suited to do that than [me] in light of my experience.

TRANSCRIPT: DEO WALUSIMBI

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Gwokto La'Kitgum

"Even a small dog can piss on a tall Building", Jim Hightower

Le Montréal d'amour d'I

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