{UAH} The Observer - Besigye speaks out on Sejusa

http://www.observer.ug/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35813:besigye-speaks-out-on-sejusa&catid=78:topstories&Itemid=116

The Observer - Besigye speaks out on Sejusa

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Wednesday, 07 January 2015 01:57

Written by DEO WALUSIMBi

Col Kiza Besigye

Besigye: we will fight on, with or without Sejusa

When he gave an interview to The Observer in January 2014, Col Kiiza Besigye, a three-time presidential candidate, said then he was talking to exiled General David Sejusa about the best approach to dislodge President Museveni.

One year later on January 5, 2015, Besigye told Deo Walusimbi in another interview at his home in Kasangati that his struggle against Museveni which has entered its 15th year would continue and end with or without Sejusa, who has returned and seems to be leaning towards reconciling with President Museveni.

Besigye also says he is open to a meeting with Museveni and discusses the opposition's plan B should Parliament fail to approve their constitutional reforms. Below are excerpts:
How would you describe the year 2014?

Well, it was as challenging as they come because my pre-occupation over the last 15 or more years has been to cause political changes that can lead to a democratic dispensation, good government where there is no system of corruption like the one we have; where we can have respect for citizens' right, and where all Ugandans have equal opportunities.

Now, that kind of situation will not come unless, the Museveni regime, which embodies all that – it's undemocratic, corrupt; it's an abuser of rights, sectarian, nepotistic… it's exactly what must be got rid of before this country can breathe.
Why hasn't this happened in the last 15 years of your resistance?

It has not happened and the longer this pernicious system remains in place, the more suffering it imposes on all of us and the messier even its removal threatens to become.

So, we spent the whole of 2014, in a national campaign for free and fair elections, which wasn't without challenges as you may recall, we were simply talking about free and fair elections, but we had to be imprisoned, tear-gassed,  [and] terrorized.

Was there any bright side to 2014?

On the brighter side, 2014 caused greater exposure of the system to Ugandans; more and more Ugandans came to know how evil the NRM leadership is, especially because of the internal contradictions between Mbabazi and Museveni that became sharper.

I think those contradictions went far to demonstrate what we were telling Ugandans about the evil in the NRM leadership.

So, the national consultative meeting that we held in November [2014] at Hotel Africana gave me hope because there was a whole array of citizens from all walks of life, including those who were leaders within NRM…they talked about the urgent need to have a system that would lead to a peaceful change of government which this country has never witnessed since its inception.

And so, I have entered 2015 with renewed hope and confidence that Ugandans are ready to do what it takes to cause the changes they deserve.
But we are not seeing these reforms come to Parliament yet there are few months left to the 2016 elections; aren't you worried?

The current Parliament is a creature [and] an organ of the dictatorship; [therefore], it's not the organ to lead to fundamental reforms that can create a new dispensation. If you think that this Parliament, which is part of this government, can espouse those reforms, it is [like] expecting a bull to deliver. [It] won't.

But what is critical is that the people of Uganda are the custodians of all power because Parliament is simply a servant of the people – it is supposed to use delegated powers from the people.

And once the people who delegate those powers to Parliament have come to the realisation that, that Parliament represents a wrong system, then that problem is more or less solved, because you are talking about people who have got ultimate powers and it's those people that give me confidence, not Parliament.

So, once the people have come to that realisation, it means that they are ready to act, including acting on Parliament and if Parliament doesn't listen to what people have said, you will see what will happen to Parliament and that, to me, is the confidence [I have] –  not that this Museveni Parliament can do anything…

But it's the Museveni Parliament which is mandated to ratify the aspirations of the people under the law…

Yes, but I have told you this particular Parliament arose from a fraudulent system, which people want changed and that Parliament arising from a fraudulent system. It's not the one that is likely to redress that frau; it will not.

So, the people must step in again [and] this is the way I look at it: people must step in again, the way they have always done because there was a Parliament in 1980, but it was a fraudulent one…and people took it upon themselves to remove it.

So, we have a fraudulent Parliament now. Of course [the MPs] can choose to correct the mistakes themselves; they have that choice. I am only saying that it's not expected that this [Parliament] will make the changes the country needs because those changes will not be in favour of those who are making the changes.

Most of the MPs you are talking about have just swallowed Shs 110m of taxpayers' money, which they were not entitled to, [but] money they have stolen from citizens; so, that is the Parliament that you expect to listen to people  they are stealing from.

One would then ask the rationale for the opposition, civil society and citizenry to waste time and resources generating constitutional reforms well aware that Parliament would not actualise them. It's not wasting time [because] somebody who has the ultimate power cannot waste time. It means that what they have said will happen, come rain, come shine. 

What are your personal plans for 2015?

To work with any and all people who will be asserting the right of the citizens to good governance and, basically, I will be continuing with rallying fellow citizens, making the case for urgent action and, where any leadership is needed that I can offer, I will provide that leadership to make sure that citizens act [and] in time to save our country.
You said last January that President Museveni would never make it to 2016, that his legitimate term would naturally end, but here we are…

Well, I wouldn't want him to make it for sure, if it was within my will, I wouldn't want them to make it to even tomorrow because, like I have said, everyday that this evil regime remains in charge of our country is a day that costs us immensely and will cost us immensely for a long time.

If it had gone early, maybe these billions, they are now trying to steal on the railway [SGR] project, Katosi road, etc, would have been saved. So, for me, I can only commit myself to doing everything I can to see that change comes to our country as quickly as possible, but I am not God, I am not the people of Uganda, I am only one soul who wakes up every day to do his best.
Do you still hold that opinion that the Museveni regime will collapse before 2016?

All I can say is that there is nothing to stop that eventuality from happening and certainly, I live hoping that it happens, and if doesn't happen, I will not stop, [but] I will continue struggling until it happens or until I expire, whichever comes first.
In January 2014, you told The Observer that you were talking to renegade Gen Sejusa about the best approach to dislodge Museveni. Did you know he was returning?

I wasn't aware. I was informed the day he came [back], by his lawyer [Ladislaus] Rwakafuuzi. He told me [on phone] that Sejusa had informed him that he was on the way that day.
The lawyer had been unaware of his client's return?

I don't know when his lawyer knew, but he rang me; I was in Hoima, and he told me that Sejusa had told him to inform me that day.
I remember it was very late in the night…

I was informed during the day because we had a wedding in Hoima, but I guess he was on the way because the flight takes eight or so hours [from UK] to here.

Not that it's important to inform me or not, because I don't control his programmes; he chooses what to do and when to do it; the important thing for me and which I have said over and over again is that whoever says and acts to challenge the regime of Museveni is someone I will work with because that is what I wake up to do every day and the more people, the easier it becomes…

and that is why I promptly welcomed what Sejusa was saying and indeed met him to confirm whether he was the one saying those things and in the long discussions we had, he confirmed to me and I am definitely convinced that he knows what the problem in this country is from those discussions we had.

Now, whether he wants to do something about it or not, it's for him to decide. Whatever he does or says to solve this problem, is welcome.

Have you continued your discourse here?

I have never talked to him since he came [back], but I have made myself very clear that I don't consider the mere coming back as fundamental to the struggle we are in because at the end of the day, all struggles will take place from here in order to have effect.

So, his coming back is not [necessarily] anti-struggle. It can be used to further its objective [but], of course it can be used to undermine it. If he [Sejusa] chooses to use his coming back to support our struggle, we shall continue to welcome him, if he chooses to work with Museveni or to act in ways that undermine our struggle, we shall continue to take him as we take Museveni.

This struggle will continue [and] end with or without Sejusa because it's not Sejusa who started it; it's not him who we look up to to end it. No. We are in the struggle by our own means, strengths and convictions; we shall continue to prosecute it with or without Sejusa. But if Sejusa chooses to join the struggle, we shall welcome him, if he chooses to undermine it, we shall fight him.

Some of your colleagues are reluctant to embrace him because of his 'dirty' past…

The people who suggest that, I don't agree with them. For me, I think, whoever wants to end this situation, whether he has done wrong things in the past or not, should be given an opportunity to do what he can.

That does not absolve anybody from any wrongdoings; whoever has done anything wrong in the past even if it's myself should be prepared to face justice, but we cannot face justice when there is no justice system.

Does the Sejusa you know from long ago have the guts to stand up to Museveni?

Well, I have no instrument to measure guts of people, or what motivates them or not, but what I know is that he has stood up to Musevni in the past. The fact that he has not done so consistently, is a matter that he should speak [on] for himself; but for me, whether he has the guts or not is not important.

Whether he makes these statements motivated by his personal reasons and not by national objectives, it's not important to me, but if he does anything for whatever motivation and it helps the struggle, then we welcome it because in the struggle you cannot seek to have permanent friends or opponents, you get friends for or against the struggle according to what one is doing.

Museveni served as an intelligence officer of Obote, it didn't stop him from eventually waging a war and removing him, and people like Akena [Jimmy, Obote's son] are now working with government.
Don't you feel betrayed by Gen Sejusa now that he has met with Museveni?

I don't need to trust him for anything [because] even those that have not met Museveni [in public]; I don't know whether they meet him, and I don't mind whether they meet him.

For me, whether you met Museveni last night or not, when we say that let's go to Kampala and you are with us, you are with us…it's the actions that matter, not what you have in your mind.

And that is the way we should relate, we tell those who are with us by their actions. If he betrays us, we shall condemn him, if he's with us today, we welcome him.
How come you have not met Museveni since falling out with him 15 years ago?

There have been no reasons to meet. We are pursuing completely different agendas [so], we have no meeting point. But, I am not against meeting Museveni in principle. In fact, we have been demanding that there should be a national dialogue where he is and where we all are.

The difference is that we must know if the agenda of the meeting is very clear, if it's for all stakeholders because my quarrel with Museveni is not personal, it's over political issues of Uganda.

So, if I am to meet him [personally], we may talk about issues of cows or things like that, but if we are going to talk about politics, then we should have everyone whose issues are similar to mine and we should agree on who moderates the meeting because I think Museveni is the problem, and so, none of us should be coordinating such a meeting because I am not interested in a meeting chaired by Museveni, the problem, and we should agree on how to implement whatever we agree on.

Museveni has met with many people and they agree on things and they never happen; so, I should have guarantees that would guide any meeting that takes place. If he is serious to have a meeting to solve Uganda's problems, we are happy to meet Museveni even tomorrow, but I am not interested in meetings for purposes of taking pictures for public relations and tea.

What if Uganda's problems get resolved and the meeting decides that Museveni continues to rule?

The purpose of the meeting would not be to resolve who should govern Uganda; no. Our problem is not who governs Uganda; in principle, I hear people talking about [Brig] Muhoozi [Kainerugaba, Museveni's son], I am not bothered if Muhoozi is the one governing Uganda.

What I am bothered about, is that whoever governs Uganda, must do so within a framework that respects the will of the people and that is why we are talking about free and fair elections…

If we agree on that and it's implemented and the outcome is Museveni, I have no problem, because then, there would be an accountable Museveni, but today we have a monarch, someone who is not accountable to anybody because he came with the gun, and he has manipulated [people] to stay in power.
Some people say Sejusa was planted to get you in the opposition to open up to him.

That is, as far as I am concerned, not a serious way of doing things. First of all there is no secret in how we want to remove Museveni. We address the media on our actions here in Kampala; so, why would one go to London to spy on what we are doing? In any case, I know for sure, that many of our activists are spies themselves.

There are many among us who are spying for [Police Chief Kale] Kayihura, and the intelligence services. So, they don't have difficulty in knowing [what we are doing].

It doesn't need to take the coordinator of intelligence services to London to learn what we are doing here and if that was their plan, there is nothing they got because there is nothing I told Sejusa that I would not be talking to you [Observer] about.

Secondly, even if he was sent to spy and he has been saying all those [bad] things about Museveni, I doubt how it could have been helpful to Museveni who [supposedly] sent him to spy. 

What do you make of the president's call for you people to stop making every day an election day?

Our struggle is not about elections, it's about a dictatorship… It's our daily struggle to remove the dictatorship. On the other hand, it's Museveni who is always politicking because even last year there were billboards all over the country, promoting him, calling on people to be counted, register for national IDs, and now  there are pictures all over town for his sole candidacy.

It's extremely interesting that a head of state can unashamedly post billboards of a sole candidacy without any contest; it's amazing how tyrants' heads work.
What is the state of your aide Sam Mugumya who is jailed in DRC?

I don't know! All I know is that the last time he was seen, he was in a military detention centre in a place called Ndoro. The Ugandan ambassador in Congo visited him together with the four colleagues he is detained with and he reported that they were in good condition.

We have been struggling to send a delegation of our own people to visit them…hopefully in the course of this week, and they will give us more information.
walusimbideo@gmail.com  

The Observer - Besigye speaks out on Sejusa

http://www.observer.ug/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35813:besigye-speaks-out-on-sejusa&catid=78:topstories&Itemid=116

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